Laura Nolan
Iconic Films
2 for 1 tickets to Singin' In The Rain, this coming Monday. Book now
Navigation - link to other main sections from here
From
February 1, 2008
Where have all the men gone?
British women in their thirties want mates. They can’t find any. Why? Because most eligible males are selfish, mixed-up man-boys chasing no-strings sex, says our correspondent
Men are like eggs. They must hatch or go bad. I came to this conclusion after seeing in the new year with a gang of university friends and hearing one of them, a single guy of 35 called Jamie, declare with complete sincerity that his resolution for 2008 was not to get a girlfriend.
I groaned. His vow struck me as odd, not just because Jamie is a remarkably warm, kind and entertaining individual rather than some ropey Lothario, but because I knew him ten years ago when he was mustard keen to marry his then girlfriend. And when I thought harder about it, I realised that over the past decade Jamie has effectively been degenerating from the man he was at 25 years old to the boy he is today.
The person who fell in love and believed that when you found a great girl you counted your blessings and married her has morphed into someone in search of nothing more than a bit of fun, who views any relationship that he can’t get out of at the ping of a text message with genuine unease.
Where have all the men gone? Instead, we have an overload of man-boys – which leaves a generation of single, thirtysomething women who are their natural mates bewildered. I am one of those women.
I am often told that our problem boils down to bad timing. In our early twenties (the age at which our parents tended to meet and marry), we, arguably the first generation of properly educated and professionally ambitious women, were not ready to settle down and start having babies.
By our late twenties many of us did end up reconnecting with our first loves, or met men of a similar age who were still young enough to want to match and hatch. But for those who didn’t, life is increasingly complicated – and infuriating.
The assumption seems to be that it is our fault that we can’t find “him”. I have lost count of the number of articles by female columnists that I’ve read, urging “career women” like me to get pregnant before it is too late. I want to point out that I work to eat, and that earning a salary funds the social life needed to meet new people.
What do they think we are doing? Take India Knight’s attack, in The Sunday Times, on what she called “the sweetly retro notion of mooching around pining for Mr Right as the (biological) clock ticks away”. “My advice to all my girlfriends is, just do it,” she announces. “Get pregnant. Don’t wait. Mr Right can turn into Mr Wrong overnight: there are no certainties.”
And we wonder why men are afraid to commit, when women like me are depicted as hormonally charged sperm-bandits interested in nothing beyond the urge to have a child.
Does society really want usto settle for Mr Only OK rather than the real deal? Marriage strikes me as hard enough work without saddling yourself with someone for whom you don’t quite feel all that’s necessary. And giving birth with your mother at your bedside because your child’s father isn’t that into you, or the baby, strikes me as far sadder than never getting pregnant at all.
Having lived in New York for five years, and compared notes with friends in other cities (Hong Kong, Paris and Singapore among them), I can assert that the attack on thirtysomething singletons seems to be a particularly English trait. In other cities we are left alone at worst, celebrated at best, and most people find someone at some stage, even if it is at the age of 40. In my view, London is quintessentially chauvinist, a state of affairs exacerbated by the City, the all-male drinking clubs, the pub and football culture, and the strong, albeit small, group of women who seem to treat marriage as their sole raison d’être.
But what of these Brit boys who fail to hatch by their mid-thirties? Do they really turn bad? They don’t necessarily become bad company – as long as the relationship is kept platonic. Many of my best friends are utterly charming bachelors, but they are also the first to admit that they are rubbish boyfriends. Interestingly, they also agree that this wasn’t always the case.
“Looking back, I can see a couple of girls I was ready to marry ten years ago. But I seem to have drifted farther and farther away from being ready since then,” one of them confided as his 40th birthday approached. “I felt a level of certainty about people then that I don’t feel now.”
Personally, I think an odd thing happens to man-boy brains at about the age of 30. Some neural pathway, hitherto well oiled through a diet of normal relationships and an awareness of such terms as “compromise” and “I’m sorry”, tunes in to a specific area of the brain labelled “navel gazing”. If it miraculously misses that zone, it veers into another equally exclusive area: “near-total romantic/emotional shutdown beyond the next 24/48-hour period”.
My last few years of dating reads like either a therapist’s dream or a dictionary of neuroses. On the neurotic front, one man-boy aged 32 had a panic attack at dinner, which he thought was a heart attack until we got to A&E and he was assured otherwise. Another wore a watch that monitored his sleep patterns.
More common, however, are those who insist on persuading you that they are the one you have been waiting for, only to run away the second you show signs of agreeing. One man rang me every two hours for a week to persuade me that what we had going was a once-in-a-lifetime experience, until I started to think that he might be right – at which point he told me that he was too messed up for a relationship.
Another invited me to Spain after one date, only to say at the end of it that it was “all too full-on”. Another couldn’t stop sending soppy texts, until I sent one back. All were thirtysomething, bright, successful bachelors. They had all had therapy. They all talked ad infinitum about their “ishoos”. But not one of them asked about mine. I listened, and either left, or they did.
Nobody expects these guys to settle for Ms Only OK, either, but it’s fair to say that most of them are not looking to settle for anyone – and, in fact, dating a series of Ms Only OKs fills the gap nicely.
“In theory I’d like a family,” says one. “But it doesn’t feel urgent and in the meantime I have a great life with plenty of sex – all on my own terms. Love has sort of disappeared from the menu. And yes, now I’ve learnt that I can, I mess women around in ways I’d never have done in my twenties.”
Horror stories from friends abound, too. “I spent most of last year with a guy who used to weigh me every day and refused to sleep with me if I got too heavy,” admits a colleague. “How bonkers was that? But the awful thing is that once you pass 36, you find it’s single men rather than single women who are the prize commodity.”
I don’t know of any woman my age (35) who hasn’t spent several years in love with a boyfriend, only to have to give up on the relationship after realising that children and commitment were not going to happen for ages, if at all.
Many of these guys would be living happily as husbands and fathers if they had taken the plunge. But they haven’t. So what’s the answer? Become more hard-boiled and accept that, in return for children, we will have to make do with someone Only OK? Go after men ten years younger than us? Or try bruised divorcés ten years older?
There is another option, of course. And that is that the whole generation of single man-boys start behaving like men. Meanwhile, everyone else could stop asking us why we’re not married yet, and wrongly assuming that it’s because we are so work-obsessed that we don’t want to be.
Believe us, we are not single through want of trying.
It’s a statistics thing
For every 100 females, 108 males are born in the UK. But owing to the higher mortality rates of young males, by the mid-teens the numbers have evened out. This remains the case until old age, when a surplus of women arises again.
In some big cities, including London, there are more women than men. There is debate about the reasons for this, but it is nothing new. The thirtysomething single status is new, however – mainly because women now leave it later to marry. In their mid-thirties they find themselves in a predicament, whether they outnumber men of their age or not.
A study I carried out on lonely hearts ads indicated that, while single females typically advertise for men three to five years older than them, men advertise for women of a certain age irrespective of their own. Their preferred age is 24 to 25. So the men that the women want are looking for women, but younger ones.
So should a woman in her mid-thirties be looking for a man in his forties instead? Perhaps – but only in his late forties. I was involved in research that looked at how the sexes perceive their market value – ie, what they think their “package” is worth to the opposite sex. The results suggested that males in their early and mid-forties overestimated their standing the most. They are getting richer at this age, and become self-deluded about what they can get in return. They also want to attract a twentysomething, but are less likely to succeed than younger men. Only in their mid to late forties, when their risk of death increases (they may be rich, but they may also die), do they become more realistic.
In short, women seem to hang on to the ideal, and many get lucky. But when they start wanting to settle down, they opt for what biologists call the Hobson’s Choice Strategy. In layman’s terms, they opt for something over nothing.
— PROFESSOR ROBIN DUNBAR
Robin Dunbar is Professor of Evolutionary Anthropology at the University of
Oxford
The man’s view: try this instead
Most single men want love. But they are also terrified of failure, poverty and being trapped. They are scared of turning into their dads, or, if divorced, repeating their old mistakes. They are scared that their women will make them throw out their comics, their motorbikes and their dreams of writing novels.
It doesn’t really matter which type of man you go for – younger, older, divorced. What matters is that you go for him.
Personally, I think the divorced man is more realistic. He’s not like a young man who can’t commit because he yearns for a fairytale goddess whose heart he may one day capture. The older man just wants someone who won’t shout at him. If it takes her two minutes to get into the car, she’s ideal. If she’s giving, and laughs at his jokes, he’ll love her for ever. Give those bruised men a try. Stop expecting to find The One. Find someone, and give him love recklessly.
Or you can snare one of the single man-boys, but you must be cunning. You must wait for him to call but, when he does, you must be devoted and give him glorious sex in flattering lighting.
There is only one time when a man knows, for certain, that he loves his woman and will stay with her for ever: when she has just chucked him. The rest of the time he’s not sure. I remember the first time my wife said: “Let’s have children!” I knew that this was an historic moment. I must respond like a man. So I ignored her. Men’s heads are filled with confusion, fear and football statistics. And whenever they are made an offer, they always feel the negatives first – and if they can’t express them, they clam up like oysters.
In which case, trapping them may involve trickery. After five months – preferably during a three-day trip to Paris, so he can’t get away – you must say, lightly and just before sex: “I love every part of your life. I want to see you richly succeed. But you must marry me.” Then you must change tack and become very soft. You have touched on his deepest fears. Listen. Tell him to write that novel. Tell him that you love ELO. After a two-day sulk, which will be immensely wounding for you, he will begin to express his horrid, selfish fears, and thus you will be stumbling towards your perfectly imperfect life.
Try not to worry about what happens. Remember, there are also loads of men like me: the ones who hatched, and still went bad. We wish you luck. We wish you love. We’ll see you by the swings in five years.
— ANDREW CLOVER
Andrew Clover’s Dad Rules is published by Penguin in May
I'm a single girl, in my early thirties, with a demanding job. I would love to meet someone special to share my life with, a partner in crime. Does that really make me a desperate feminist with a personality flaw.
CJ, London, UK
The reason there are no more men like you father is because there are no more women like your mother.
Jeff, Charlotte, USA
The divorce court robbed me on behalf of my wife with a 62/38 split. The chivalrous judge didn't believe her income statement but still left her with a mortgage 9 times her income! Moral. If your male don't marry. You will pay both financially and emotionally. You will never trust again post divorce
jbgood, London, UK
Women start loosing their fertility (slowly but significantly) as young as 28. So of course their is going to be bias against women over this age, I mean some men kinda want women who can bear them children.
M Vindrias, Christchurch, New Zealand
From a heterosexual, non-feminist woman's point of view: I'm much happier ignoring men. Men nowadays have a hard time making decisions, have hang-ups, and/or not loyal.
Sorry guys, you are not as hot or wanted for marriage or for anything else like you want everyone to believe. So, don't worry too much about women chasing you around for that normal companionship.
As far as divorced men, doesn't matter. That previous marriage(s) carry quite a baggage into future relationships.
Theresa, SLC,
Pretty ironic that this author doesn't see how her article points out that it is not men that are the problem, but the women.
She pines for a man. Note she does not pine for someone who will spend long hours talking with her, or cuddling, or sharing a life with. She does not look for a man to treat like a king, to make him feel special, to earn his trust and be there for him, and likewise have him do the same for her.
Nope. She pines for a marriage and a baby. He is the means to an end. He can be anyone, so long as he can get with the program, doesn't have a life outside of her or talk about his "ishoos".
And also note that when the means to an end doesn't give her the means, she insults him. How does she expect to find men when she obviously doesn't like them?
Jen Kuhn, Prattsburgh, USA, NY
You said everything for me, fuguez. I'm nearly 25 and I learned that the 20-something women really aren't interested in
pursuing a serious relationship. I don't sleep around and I don't want to keep my future spouse pregnant, barefoot and in
the kitchen, but rather as an equal. They all want to hold you out at arms length while they get
'ahead in life' (which means what exactly?). And they accuse guys of stalling! They stall because these women give the impression
they aren't interested. Asking someone out takes a lot of courage (especially if you're awkward and shy like me), and after so many
'nos' you start to wonder 'Why bother?". I'd go after older women, but I don't want to be a 'toy boy' either, or date someone who is near
my mother's age (plus the fact that they have children near my age is a bit daunting). Where are the women??
I'm seriously reconsidering my previous restraint against online dating; there's no Russian equivalent for "feminism' as defined in the West.
Zach, Idaho Falls, USA
As time goes by the more attractive people, both male and female pair up, get married and have kids. Meaning that the remainder have a higher percentage of the physically or mentally unattractive left.
I recently divorced and remember from my mid twenties there were large numbers of women of a similar age who were single, fun and attractive - not surprisingly most of them are now married.
Now I find that the majority of single women in their late 30's have major personality flaws and it is patently obvious why they are single - nobody in their right mind would want to live with them. I'm sure the same holds true for the men too but as I'm not trying to date them I couldn't care.
BIll, London,
I was 34 when I married. I never thought I would ever marry. We lasted 9 years and had an amicable divorce, still freinds, and I am very lucky. To find that situation again in this lifetime? Not likley. It is not that we are Man Boys, we are not convinced this is a good business decision due to the continuing risk involved. Marrige is an extremley risky endeavor.There is not one woman I have ever dated (Which were Many.....) that I would ever think of marriage. I could see in advance the senario that would unfold....Most men do not have that insight.
When asked why I have not had children at the age of 55 now, I simply state, I have not met the right woman to have children as of yet. I have taken this family comitment very seriously, not like the rest of the world who pop out kids with multiple partners at the worlds peril. Maybe if Keira Knightley wanted to have our baby, I may consider it.
Stoneman, Oceanside, California USA
Welcome to the world you've made, marriage is just too damn risky, get it wrong and she walks off with all "YOUR" money.
If your so worried about babies then visit a sperm bank.... if you can find one with any sperm in now the law says they have to tell you who the man was..... like ai said welcome to the world you've made.
Enjoy.
Jim, London,
36 single, never married man here.
If you went to the bank with a business proposition and said the following.
- 50% chance of failure
- 70% chance of that failure caused by partner
- if the business fails, you will be pretty much asset stripped
You would be laughed out of the bank.
Time to wake up and smell the coffee ladies.
I will never get married. Ever.
I might settle down with someone, if i find someone worth settling down with, but there is no way i'm gonna bet my house and assets on the flip of a coin.
But as usual, some women like the article writer is willing to pin the blame for this on men when 70% of divorces are instigated by women.
Maybe you need to put down the little princess book, and take a long hard look at reality.
I'm older, wiser and in a better position to know what is good for me, and marriage ain't it.
Yet, somehow this makes me immature?!
Andy, Birmingham, England
No-fault divorce and the skew towards women in the settlements are big parts of this problem. The law as it works today in the UK makes marriage an unattractively lopsided proposition for any person wealthier than their intended, typically the man. A married woman has the ultimate trump card of threatening divorce and so has much less incentive to maintain her side of the bargain, creating a MASSIVE disincentive for men to marry. True, in divorce she could lose a certain quality of life, but rarely to the extent that a man does and frequently she will emerge wealthier than when she entered the marriage.
What's more, many men who were spurned in their twenties because they weren't perfect find that - at last - in their thirties the boot is on the other foot.
A possible solution would be compulsory pre-nuptial contracts where the default deal would reflect the relative wealth of the parties as it was before marriage and alter the current imbalance in child access arrangements.
Stephen Clark, Boston, USA
I'm a male in my mid 30's. Why would i want to give up my life and fun seeing that i am richer, wiser and i could now seduce women in the early 20's more easily?
Settle down? Maybe when i'm 45. But for now, its about making money, young women, fast cars, 6 days in the gym, parties and more importantly traveling around the world in the pursuit of fun. (You cant do this with a nagging with and screaming kids).
Do i have any sympathy for women? How many ways can i spell NO!
Alfredo Runi, London,
I am a 27 year old male and have a number of friends in their 30's.
It worries me that within the next few years I will gradually start to de-evolve into a selfish, self-obsessed "man-boy".
Its disappointing to see a seemingly intelligent woman succumb to another annoying male stereotype and proclaim it as some kind of golden universal truth.
No doubt you knew that after reading your article your fellow disaffected females would be clapping you on the back for your "insight".
Real men are tired of the percentage of females (notice how I don't label you all) that have fallen victim to their own misguided assumption that a rewarding and meaningful relationship is a given in life.
There are a number of us that would love to find a girl to devote the rest of our lives to.
We just tend to go for the ladies that aren't presumptuous and bitter enough to to assume we are all the same.
P.S. MOTD and maturity are not mutually exclusive
Amit, London, UK
Welcome to the glorious sexual revolution baby. Your now treated as an equal and the same as a man until your 30s... then reality sets in. Women are at greater risk trying to bear children at this age. Men are not. That man you are furious at for ignoring your attempts to drag in to matrimony? He can actually remember making those attempts when younger and being ignored by your sisters who "just want to have fun and experience all life has to offer without ties"... just like he does now. Those few extra pounds in his pocket that you turn your nose up at? Surprisingly enough, not all younger women turn their nose up at it. Face it, after years of telling men that you don't believe in the moral of the story of free milk and a cow, men believe you.
Damon, Chicago, USA
It's like you all want to punish an entire gender for the sins of only one or a few members. Maybe SOME men refuse to grow up, but some don't. SOME women want you only for your money, but not ALL. Just because I happen to share a gender with someone doesn't mean I share their outlook, values, or goals. You can't decry an entire gender full stop.
Julia, NYC,
Having recovered from a painful divorce, a friend asked me to go with her to a singles evening. So at the grand old age of 40, off I went. It scared the living bejaysus out of me. There wasn't any chit chat, banter or even fun. There was a checklist of - what job I do, would I marry again, would I want to have more kidsetc etc In the thirteen years I was married, all spontaneity seems to have disappeared. Have had a couple of relationships but (& it could well be my fault) they turned out to be as mad as a box of frogs. So, I have the happy sanctuary of my mates, attached & unattached, and there I'm going to stay. You women are just plain scary. nowadays.
Jeff, London/Paris,
Many forget that it was the feminists ultimate aim to destroy marriage - not just change it. A woman who is a feminist cannot complain that men do not want to marry as they are just doing what feminist wished themselves.
Rowan , Nottingham, UK
Underlines the old truism, "You can never change a man, unless he is in his nappies".
Toby, Calcutta, India
Laura Roberts: your argument is essentially that behaviour in marriage should be rewarded or punished as appropriate.
Yes I agree. It is the lack of that discipline which makes marriage unpalatable today.
Any woman can walk away from any marriage and for any reason , all in the knowledge that she will be kept for life. If her financial position reflected her behaviour then there would be an incentive to keep her vows. This argument applies to men too;- behave or lose.
No fault divorce is an impossible position from which to sell the ideal of marriage.
David Morrison, Airdrie, UK
The Atlantic Monthly has a great article on this "Marry Him: The case for settling for Mr. Good Enough."
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/single-marry
"... I realize that if I don’t want to be alone for the rest of my life, I’m at the age where I’ll likely need to settle for someone who is settling for me. What I and many women who hold out for true love forget is that we won’t always have the same appeal that we may have had in our 20s and early 30s .... wouldn’t it have been wiser to settle for a higher caliber of “not Mr. Right†while my marital value was at its peak?"
Diane, NYC,
So, in summary, the article boils down to:
1) my life is not how I want it to be.
2) This is not my fault.
3) so someone else should change so that they are more to my liking.
Enjoy being single.
Ross Ignol, Seattle, USA
Nick - now let's think of this really logically. Why are the 70% of divorces initiated by women? What percentage of that would be infidelity on the part of the man? 50% at least? 90% probably?
I don't believe a woman or a man should automatically have half of what their partner has earned. But I do believe that if there is a breach of contract - and marriage IS a contract - then damages should be paid.
Now, only a cretin would get married and then disrespect his/her partner and their marriage vows by infidelity and - to quote you - "risking half of all his money and possessions on the toss of a coin." Well, a toss certainly.
Yes, Only a cretin would do that!
It is largely men who create this problem by breaching the contract. The choice is yours boys: stay married, or if you want to be with someone else, get divorced first and then be with someone else. No overlapping and deceit. Sad pathetic adulterer or strong, capable husband.
Laura Roberts, London, UK
Are we bringing up a nation of girls whose primary goal is to have a career and not a family? If motherhood were not regarded as some sort of secondary point to life, maybe this problem would not be as acute.
Arabella, Suffolk,
laura, have you considered the possibility that if you and your middle-aged friends can't find a nice man, the problem is you? I guess so, if you've read these comments! perhaps you're just no fun. although maybe the problem is with marriage and the courts too.
it's not that men don't grow up, it's that they are having a good time and can afford to be choosy....like younger women - isn't this precisely what you've all been doing? and you haven't grown up, you just got old, which means the physical imperatives are casting a shadow.
the real difference between men and women is that women buy impractical shoes. and then they expect sympathy when they can't walk in them and their feet hurt. I think you know what I'm saying.
a few correspondents have noted 50% of marriages fail. it is silly to look at this stat. I don't feel my marriage has a 50% chance of failure. because I take it seriously and married the right person. bad marriages fail, not half of all marriages.
jem, london, uk
Let’s think about this logically: 50% of all marriages end in divorce, the vast majority of which (70%) are initiated by the wife. When a man gets divorced our feminazi laws mean he loses half (or more) of everything he owns.
This means that getting married is – for a man - the equivalent of risking half of all his money and possessions on the toss of a coin. Only a cretin would do that!
I cannot get married as I have far too much to lose. That is why I intend to remain single, just like all my friends – bar one and he is married to a foreign woman. If you want more men to get married you must make divorce painless for them. This is so obvious that only those blinded by feminism cannot see it. If a woman doesn’t want the man, why should she have his money?
It was women who created this problem by demanding 'feminist emancipation' and only women can resolve the situation by now rejecting this. The choice is yours girls: sad spinster or traditional wife.
Nick, London,
Let’s think about this logically: 50% of all marriages end in divorce, the vast majority of which (70%) are initiated by the wife. When a man gets divorced our feminazi laws mean he loses half (or more) of everything he owns.
This means that getting married is – for a man - the equivalent of risking half of all his money and possessions on the toss of a coin. Only a cretin would do that!
I cannot get married as I have far too much to lose. That is why I intend to remain single, just like all my friends – bar one and he is married to a foreign woman. If you want more men to get married you must make divorce painless for them. This is so obvious that only those blinded by feminism cannot see it. If a woman doesn’t want the man, why should she have his money?
It was women who created this problem by demanding 'feminist emancipation' and only women can resolve the situation by now rejecting this. The choice is yours girls: sad spinster or traditional wife.
Nick, London,
When I was 22, a British Army officer, I was desperate to marry my girlfriend. I would have killed or died for her. She moved on and I was heartbroken. I left the Army and emigrated to the USA. 20 years later – long story - we reconnected in Edinburgh. She had fallen hard, never married, was living in a two room basement flat. She told me she dumped me 20 years ago because I had no money, then offered to become my mistress. I declined. Reason? I am happily married……and the poor girl had begun to look a little like a bullfrog. OK, what’s the point? Young men do fall in love, once or maybe twice. It’s an adaptive neurological trick that kept the hunter-gatherer father around for the key early years of his child’s life. From their late 20s on, many men never again feel that intense emotional attachment. 40 years of social engineering have encouraged women to reject young men’s affection during that brief time when they are willing to unequivocally commit. And here we are.
Mike, Boston, USA
After reading about half the comments, I have a question- why do writers keep saying "she got half my assets"? How about "he got half our wealth", wanted lots of their children's free time for visitation and resented paying child support? The mom got half our wealth, gets them every weekday to get them to school, cook, clean, do laundry, drive them everywhere (80 min. a day folks!), help them with homework etc, work to make ends meet and has no time or energy for anything else? Seems like mutual resentment has taken the place of appreciation for the role each gender has to play in raising healthy children and having loving communities. We're just all about money and sex aren't we?
Sheila, Abbotsford, Canada
Another lady gives her slant on men. If I were so presumtious as to do one of these self same articles, giving my views on "What's wrong with women," I would be excoriated by every woman who could pick up a pencil. Yet you perport to tell one, and all, about, "Man Boys." First, I'm happily married, have been for the last 48 years. One thing I've learned in that length of time, is that I'm thankful to God, that I found the woman of my dreams way back then. If I hadn't, I would more than likely be one of your man-boys. I can't even have a cogent conversation with todays woman, without her making it plain that she is my superior in all ways, social, intellectual,and sexual. The longer I live, the more I miss the ladies of my youth, who were my equal, not my unexcelled superior. I get my information from other men, I don't write about things that a man would not discuss with a woman. Try being a mans partner, not his psycologist, you might find there are a large plethora of "MEN,"
lee rader, pasadena , md.
This is brilliant:
"Many of these guys would be living happily as husbands and fathers if they had taken the plunge. But they haven’t. So what’s the answer? Become more hard-boiled and accept that, in return for children, we will have to make do with someone Only OK?"
So its acceptable for you to refuse to marry someone whom you consider "Only OK" - but if he refuses to marry you for the exact same reason, he's a "Man-Boy"?
JP, London, UK
Ladies: stop searching, start living.
star, Lancaster,
Kind of funny how women will throw away a good relationship for their need for drama, and then only when they are older and cannot get bad boys, then they want a serious relationship. I dated a single mother, who lived with her parents, was unemployed was we started dated, I'm a six figure salary guy, by no means perfect, but I was kind and caring to her, everything she claimed she wanted, and she dumped me at the drop of a hat to be with guys that provided serious drama. Just for casual sex. She sacrificed the wellbeing of her child, and upset her parents, purely for drama. And when she's in her 30s, she'll be complaining about how it's hard to find men, because of her own stupid decisions. She threw away what she claimed she wanted. So childish, and this has happened to virtually every guy I know
anon, USA, USA
70% of women who get married expect a divorce. One can fairly say that they plan a divorce from the very beginning. Marriage has become a business, a racket for women. They strip men of their assets, the very assets that made them attractive in the first place.
The career of many women has become a divorce career. They hop from one man to another, stripping them of their assets.
I am not attractive to women, because I do not have much money and dress cheaply. I look average. I expect these women to fall all over me, as soon as I have a bit more money.
Women definitely marry up. You never see a female doctor propose to a male nurse - do you? The opposite happens pretty often.
Men are definitely looking after youth and looks in women. The looks of a woman has a great value. In their late teens and early 20s their looks are their asset with the highest value, sadly most smoke, drink and party until their looks fade and then they wonder where all the men have gone.
Brian Williamson, London, Great Britain
I wish I could remember who the actress was who said that men and women should live next door to each other and visit frequently. I can't think of any good reasons why I should want to live under the same roof as a member of the opposite sex. I suppose it used to be a matter of economic imperative, but then people also used to share their beds with their children and their houses with their livestock. Everybody needs their own space and these days we can all have it. Marriage is a barbarous and wicked institution, really. It is odd that so many people are still so keen on iot.
Jim Robertson, Tonbridge, Kent
I'm 37 & never had problems getting men in my 20's. After coming out of a long relationship (my ex & I remain friends and were civilised throughout) I started dating again & found I got mostly guys in their early-mid 30's.
But it is different now, these guys have either had a hard time & cannot let go of grudges or want their mothers.
I go out for drinks & meals with friends but don't end up rolling in the street. I have sexual partners but don't sleep with everything that moves & I get male attention but it does seem that single men in their 30's & early 40's are on their way to bachelordom either through hanging on too tight to the past or to their mother's apron strings.
I live in France, when I moved I thought my boyfriend would find hopping across the channel for weekend visits fun but no, it scared him so we broke up. Having lived in Europe for 3-years I have to say my view of Englishmen has gone down mainly due to difference in mentality & the UK drink culture.
Claire, Avranches, France
Speaking as a bruised divorcee myself, you have to take the pragmatic view. Unless the balance of happiness and misery induced by the standard relationship ultimately falls to the happy side, the neutrality of the ad-hoc is the much better option. I do not think that women see things in such stark terms in general.
How many times have you been on the wrong end of a nagging regarding your personal habits, only to think "It wasn't lke this when I lived alone - I am really not doing anything wrong here".
Once one is older, one surfaces from the sea of procreation urge intoxication and the reality of living with someone, non-stop, until you die, seems less than inviting.
Steve, Reading,
"Men are like...."
And women are like gossipy little hens who like to stereotype and deride men, cluck clucking away in a manner where the reverse would be deemed unaacceptable.
Joe, Manchester,
Most women arent interested in marrying men for themselves , its usually because they want kids or a significant upgrade in lifestyle.No wonder more and more men look at women as cynical self obsessed and not a little greedy.Who wants to marry people like that?
micky d, newcastle, britain
Maybe, many guys are scared due to the fact the divorce rate is 50%+. They have had the opportunity to see many of their friends in uhappy marriages. Also, as the marriages end the men are parted from their children, real estate and hard earned savings.
Patrick, Niagara Falls
Patrick, Niagara Falls, Canada
Germaine Greer, a very famous feminist wrote a book called the female eunuch. It was a very huge success.
The book's main thesis is that the traditional, suburban, consumerist, nuclear family represses women sexually, and that this devitalizes them, rendering them eunuchs.
Now, the author of the Times Article claims that she needs men.
For us men it is a bit confusing to read at first that marriage is oppression and that women despise it, and then to hear exactly the opposite. A bit confusing - to put it litely.
See, in life one has to make choices: if one decides one thing, i tis difficult to do the exact opposite some time later.
Germaine Greer said in 2001 not having children had been the biggest mistake in her life. You cannot reject and despise men in your youth and long for men, children and the safety of a family when you are old.
Despite all this women decided to have sex with many men in their youth - men did not reject the offer.
James Maddison, Frankfurt, Germany
This one's easy... ladies, date a youger guy... seriously... both sides appreciate each other much more.
J, NY, USA,
Blame the "revolution"women now play around more than men,get drunk more than men,smoke more than men and if a marriage should go wrong no matter who is at fault the women always win, I know of cases where the woman has benn proved a liar ten times over the judges gave custody to the man but the woman just kept going back to court with expenses paid as usual by us mugs the taxpayer the man on the other hand had to pay all his court costs untill it just got too muchand he had to relinguish custody even though the courts thought it best for the child to be with his dad (the childs welfare is paramount don't make me laugh)
This is not to mention the money they can bleed from a man (mucca is a prime example) some women now make a succesfull career out of marriage, I am 68 y.o and would not dream of getting married in today's Britain
syd, LEEDS, uk
What I find humorous these days is that many "modern women" dating men in their 30s/40s actually prefer a man with a divorce in his past as opposed to one who has stayed single. Apparently, a divorce shows at least a past ability to commit.
Well, I am 36 and still single. I have not yet found the right situation and do not feel the need to settle for settling's sake (aka: stick a gun in my mouth a pull the trigger).
Good luck, spinsters.
Tom, Chicago,
But Suzanne of New York, you can keeping "wanting and demanding fidelity, maturity, intelligence and devotion" until the cows come home.
Men too have demands and they include a partnership of love (not a stupid transaction where they end up loosing all their money), sexual fulfillment, support, trust. Unless you can give me those things - and more, I will keep enjoying the "flip".
I am throughly enjoying being 32. I hump whoever I want whenever I want and the only commitment I have is to my black (overpriced) German convertible. why would I want to spoil that by getting married?
James Becker, The Big Apple, New York
I am 65 this year. My son is 21 this year. I raised him entirely on my own. If he asks me Dad what is the one piece of advice you can give me as a young man starting out in life - it would be this: NEVER MARRY.
Alan, Cardiff, UK
Lesley Harper, London All the men you mentioned as 'feminists' lived well over 100 years ago. Does it not occur to you that things might just have changed a tad since in the meantime?
Perhaps John Stuart Mill might now be engaging himself with the iniquities of the modern marital contract. Men who stay faithful and work hard can be penalised for their wife's infidelity by being losing their house, a massive part of their income/savings, and relying on their ex's good grace to maintain a relationship with their children. So little wonder men are increasingly circumspect about marriage. It's nothing to do with immaturity or narcissism - that's your department girls - it's self-preservation.
No suprise that the more thoughful and conciliatory posts by women on here seem to come from abroad, while English women just spout the usual feminist dogma and self-serving cliches about men.
JS, London,
Pretty sad reading, all of this.
A fairly poor journalist deliberately writes on a well worn theme for want of anything better to write, and gets a cheap and easy reaction. Men who think women are all psychotic, self-centred and "emancipated" golddiggers just waiting in some side alley to have children and steal all their assets, and women who have managed to reduce an entire sex to no more than a set of equally ludicrous and inapplicable male stereotypes. Not really representative of the world or even England at large.
I am successful city type on a 6 figure salary, just turned 32, getting married for the first time to someone I have been going out with for almost a decade (from way before either of us had any money), who is the same age as me. I love her, she loves me. We're both monogamous, and have always been straight with one another. No games, no war of the sexes rubbish. Not all men and women are whiny losers like some of the people posting here. Grow up - men and women alike.
Buck the Trend, London,
well, what a load of tripe. where the male of the species is concerned, the male understands 'now' that 'marriage' involves handing over half or more, of everything describable in court as assets, are women so blind that this fact must remain unspoken and so therefore cannot today be voiced in the print media?
frank o'shea, limerick, ireland
I'm happily Maried to a wonderful woman...
I'm 38 she is 36...and we have one spud (about to be two)...We earn about the same,however,she has more drive than me...I have even asked her if she would prefer me to stay home with the next spud...She loves it too much I think...We found each other early,however,our long courtship allowed me to see what both male and female friends went thru...This is only my experience but most guys love to compete,in some way,but not with a potential partner...They sate their competitive appetite on the other side of the white line,on the stage, at their job...doesn't matter where but it is generally the one place...When they make the big decision to share their life with someone they often don't like to compete with their partner on who cleans best,who cooks best or who is more romantic...You feel emasculated,belittled and compared with non-sensical moveable sets of rules enough...You give up...Women,be reasonable stop competing...Men share the load...!
Peter, Melbourne, Australia
It's an interesting debate, and one that I think frustrates both sides, at different times in our lives -- as ultimately we probably all seek the same thing.
I remember that in my 20's it was the woman who controlled the shots; and given that they were young, attractive and working I was prepared to chase. They measured the suiters and rejected the ones that fell short. I don't think I was treated as an equal.
Now, in my 30's the following is probably closer to the truth "you find it’s single men rather than single women who are the prize commodity.â€
So it makes perfect sense to use this improved position to choose wisely -- which means probably a gorgeous lady in her late 20's, giving ample time to settle down and have children. Why rush it?
Maybe the ladies left on-the-shelf should pass on this hindsight to the current generation as they party away their twenties.
Colin, Melbourne, (before London), Australia
I love women to pieces & have only ever had great girlfriends that I could have easily seen myself living out my days with. Unfortunately though in my 20's they were either too old for me, too young for me or I felt I was too young & not ready for marriage. All of them without fail wanted marriage badly.
Now that I am 33, when I date women & tell them I am keen to settle down they run a million miles! It is so funny, I think I am going to have to go back to being a non-committal, lad about town to fool them in to thinking, he'll be a challenge to get him to marry me?! To be honest though, I could see myself not getting married now? Is it really worth the hassle any more - so many depressing stories...
James, London,
Women always complained despite being the privileged sex since thousands of years. Women have never suffered inequalities at work - they worked much less than men and that was a privilege. All the dirty and dangerous work has been done by men and ist still done by men. Most men do not know the concept of a career, most men have a job, which can be life threatening. Having a career is amodern idea that applies to a just a few people and apllied to even much less people 100 years ago. Women are mostly not willing to put in th erequired effort to have a career, which means working endlessly.
Women want quotas for the nice jobs (executive), but they never demand quotas for the hard and dangerous jobs men do, which are not prestigious, not well paid and do not offer a career.
Women never asked for quotas to get killed and maimed on the battlefield like millions of men have done to protect them.
Women have always been the protected, privileged sex.
William Miller, Brighton, Great Britain
Rebecca in Auckland: A similar thing happened to me, but I wouldn't allow myself to settle for an "okay" relationship. Go find that guy you're really meant to be with and let your boyfriend do the same. You still have more than half a life time to live, so why settle?
Leigh, Savannah, USA
I read all the comments and have 3 points.
1 Being selfish/unkind then whining you're lonely is stupid. I'm 25 with a good degree & career; a feminist definitely. My man likes me this way! But then I am also secure enough in myself to treat him like royalty; I cook nice meals and with his blessing, transformed his flat (as one commenter says, men like nests but can't build them). Which may be why he's also delightful to me.
2. It'd be nice if we earned more, but we've good prospects, if we start small we'll build up together. Working as a team we're each more likely to succeed individually anyway.
3. Every guy in my black book had to get HIV tests & court me for ages first. Of course I got frustrated but if you price yourself over the market you get an above-average "buyer" - better lovers too!
Recently I overheard my man getting his parents' blessing on proposing. And I've been proposed to already (by a rich then-33 ex, sadly Christian which I'm not); I must be doing something right!
Lizzie, London,
as a 34 year old female I can say, that I don't want marriage I most certanly do no want children.
I am happy with a couple of lovers and if i do get into a long term relationship (even that gives me the shudders) it will be and open one.
I did the relationship thing in my 20's and it just does not suit me, granted the lads were pillocks and I was not much better.
Life is a candy store - I like to Sample and have regular sweets.
caval, Melbourne, Australia
"Women are like milk. If they are still on the shelf when their sell-by date passes, they begin to curdle and go sour."
If someone wanted to understand why the UK has just recorded the lowest number of marriages since record keeping began, Ms Nolan and many of the female commenters here should make the cause so obvious that anyone not in a coma could see it.
A more suspicious and cynical person than my jovial self might look at this article and think that the real intention behind it is the opposite of what it appears to be - to actually make British women appear even more unattractive and make men even less inclined to tangle up their financial and emotional well-being with one of them.
This "Peter Pan" stuff has been around for the past 30+ years. If it was going to work, it would have long before now. To all those grrls thinking about raising the price of sex, I have 2 words - "Liz Jones." Like sour curdled milk, the day will come when you can't even give it away.
argyle, Blackburn, NCFM
This evening, French TV re-ran "Bridget Jones" with Renée Zellweger. Was a more despicable creature ever depicted on the screen? I think not. When one considers the success of this book and film, one can only conclude that woman are cretins. Also, they are boring, humorless and self-obsessed. Who would marry that?
Sarah Young, Paris, France
Reading most of the comments I find it so saddening that most men think that the reason all women get married do so in order to get divorced. You seem to complain and moan with every breath,playing the victim. I understand that some women can be greedy and cruel,but talk about tarring us with the same brush!
It seems to me most men think that a woman's value resides solely on how old she is and how pretty she is,and on your turn u seem to boffended by the idea that most women only want their money. We as a society should try to appreciate each other beyond what's on the surface.I know that there are some men,that see beyond your short age or pretty face and I think that most women don't go after men just because they're loaded. Women have their own money too,and I am angry at those that give women such a bad name,because we're not all the same.I've never believed most women were desperate to get married,especially not to someone so bitter like some of the ones i see on this board.
Line Larsen, Aarhus, Danmark
Many women today choose to act in a way that men find unattractive, by being:
-Sexually promiscuous (what man wants to marry a slut?)
-Masculine, almost lesbian-like (would it surprise you if I told you men prefer women, not men with breasts?)
-Excessively picky (just because you think you are perfect doesn't mean you deserve Mr. Perfect)
-Prone to divorce at the drop of a hat (great way to get men to marry you....)
-Likely to cheat (asking men to commit while refusing to commit yourselves)
In addition, women these days will take you for all you're worth
during a divorce and deny you access to your children afterward.
During marriage, they deny sex and nag incessantly.
Who wants that?
Can you honestly blame men for being averse to marrying you? Not if you are being honest with yourselves, women.
Only by looking critically at themselves will women see why men shun them for marriage.
Oda Kimura, Amsterdam, Holland
Oooooh that's hit a nerve hasn't it - judging by the comments above haha!! This article is so spot-on and rings true not just from my own experience but also that of many great girfriends. Guys in their 30s act like little kids and women don't want to date children (regardless of whether or not they want to have them at some point).
Grow up guys - and then maybe you'll be ready for a real relationship rather than having to ignore / sulk / run whenever you're confronted with anything more emotionally challenging than a Playstation or Match Of The Day...
Cathy, London, UK
Where did they go?
I went abroad, in my mid twenties and found out that there are better kinds of relationships with women than those which women brought up in the UK considered was their right, and which I found unsupportive, ultimately unloving, stressful, and just not fun. When I realized it wasn't me, it was British women, I never looked back. My marriage, to a non-British woman has just passed its ninth, very happy year and will last till we die.
Happily Married, London, UK
I am a 34 year old woman in a very nice 7-month relationship with a lovely if imperfect man. Before I was in this relationship my experience mirrored the author's to a T. Now, friends tell me their stories and I have guy friends who are in total or near total arrested development. Lovely friends, useless boyfriends. The problem is not feminism, to all the sexist blokes who responded to an articulate, honest and intelligent article with venom. It is narcissism. Selfishness. There was an older gentleman from Wales who wrote that with all the changes that swept society in the last fifty years, what suffered the most was love and romance. Love, in the sense that life is not all about YOU. Romance, in the sense that not all of life is about making money, or getting laid with the least cost possible. Why should women settle? No one says life is perfect, and there is no perfect being. But wanting and demanding fidelity, maturity, intelligence and devotion is perfectly legitimate.
Suzanne, New York, NY
OMG, I've already blogged on this thread twice. I guess soon I'll be accused of... well, nothing I haven't already been accused of before. I want to say something in defense of feminism (cease fire), which is getting a terrible rap here. Was the men's movement anathema? The civil rights movement a mistake? Women in the past lived their lives without feeling they could speak up about inequalities in the work place, their homes and the ways they were reflected in the media. There's a tremendous amount of bitterness reflected here in these threads suggesting these tensions still exist. Some
people think the existence of tension is a crime; perhaps we all need a pill for this too to erase all traces of awareness as Orwell said. Or perhaps we can try to find someone we can get along with, but it's disingenous to claim main-stream feminism broke the back of human relationships when they've long been fraught with complications all along.
It can't be the Eisenhower era forever or can it?
Elan Durham, Santa Monica, CA/US
Change friends!!Lower your male target!!!!!!! Enroll an online international date agency!! Go out with simpler men with normal jobs!!
Good luck!!!!!!
PS: Take these cues and if you strive with might and main, it's sure you'll make it!!!
Fabrizio, Rome
Fabrizio, Rome, Italy
Women should stop giving bachelors what they want- that is- no strings sex. I am completely sure that will make them grow.
Or I hope so!
Marilyn, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Women complained in the 60-70s about equality, oppression etc, let's not forget during this time men went to war in vietnam, no woman has ever been forced to go to war. But still it was women who claimed being oppressed not the men who got blown up in the jungle and devoured by mosquitos and slowly killed by agent orange. the men were draftees, they had no choice.
Today women have the freedom they asked for, "women need men like fish needs a bicycle", women this famous phrase was coined by your sisters, please ahere to it. You made your bed, now sleep in it. The bed is exactly the shape you wished it to be.
Men are useless for women, you told us for decades, do not complain if we act accrdingly. By your own words, marrying you the liberated women would be oppression. Modern men respect women and their freedom, so we do not marry them.
David Watson, Edinburgh, Great Britain
Women use children as pawns to hide behind them and extract money of men, they call deadbeats, despite them working hard and never have the right to see the children.
These women are the real problem and more and more men avoid them altogether or just have fun with them.
Richard McFarlough, Berlin, Germany
Marriage or a commitment that includes children is a disaster waiting to happen for men and children in 50% of marriages and 50%+ of cohabitees.
Men are third class citizens regarding their children and finances when a split occurs.
Men entirely rely on the goodwill of their ex, whether or not they can have a relationship with their children after the split. Children are in huge numbers denied a full relationship with their fathers after separation/divorce.
1 in 3 of children in poorer families do not see their fathers as immediate family or in their lives at all, the figures are 1 in 4 on average.
You have to be a brave or more apt, foolhardy man to get married and/or have children as it will at least 50% of the time end up with the removal of your children and the bulk of your assets.
The author of this article is the last person any guy should contemplate a long-term commitment with, her superiority and disdain for men is clear and she will likely turn in an instant.
Jeff, Surrey, UK
Where are all the men? They're still around, but have learned the lessons of women from their fathers. We know that women will quickly divorce and leave us penniless. Didn't a Beatle have similar problems with those type of demands recently?
I'm single and intend to remain that way. No selfish, mercenary is going to fleece me. Commitment? Commit to penury more like!
David Fletcher, Perth, Western Australia
Hi. This article has absolutely infuriated me. Although they are fewer and fewer in number these days, chances are that those young women who were loyal, caring and didn 't spend every friday night gyrating on the dance floor with looser after looser would have been married to a decent guy way before 30.
The 30+ somethings still single are most likely the ones who spent their youth sleeping their way through the premiership football league, drinking, smoking and doing drugs. Well ladies, you made your bed and now you must lay in it. Can the author of this article please tell me why i would want to marry a woman who has a past like what i have just described? Sure, i will have sex with you, but marry you? come on, get real.
Daniel, Huddersfield,
I went out with 24 to 26 year olds for over a decade. I married my wife once I realised that I was the love of her life - despite her being sufficiently aware to know better!
Arnold Ward, Weybridge, Surrey, UK
First, most of us regret some path not taken -- job, marriage, etc. It’s part of life. As for Mr Only OK … why not? You wouldn’t refuse to start a career because you can’t find the perfect job. You take the best “first job†you can get and try to shape your career. Nolan ‘works to eat.’ She might rather be a best-selling novelist, but she decided to take the best writing job she could get and make the best of it. I know women who married Mr Only OK in their 20s and are still married and have had careers as well. As far as I see, they are all as happy as or happier than the women who wouldn’t settle and ended up alone. You don’t mold a man like a career but you can make the best of marriage to a "decent but not perfect†husband. If you wait ‘til your late 30s, you may be more likely to marry Mr Only OK, if you marry at all, because you are actually likely to have fewer choices. Most women in their 30s are not going to have a Bridget Jones outcome.
Diane, NYC,
The problem began with Germaine Greer and all that nonsense about the female eunuch. Women's lib encouraged women to lead a life of no strings sex. So, why is it a surprise that men have accepted this attitude and practise it themselves?
If women want men to change their attitudes, they have to change theirs. Rescue your bras from the flames ladies and start wearing underwear again.
You'll be surprised how well men will respond to women becoming 'human' again.
A.G. McFarlane, Bucharest, Romania
As a 27 year old male who has been ready to commit for a while, I can understand why men who are single in their 30's wish to stay that way. I spent my younger years playing the field and enjoying no strings sex, but since I'v stopped and made a concious effort to find domething more meaningful, all the women I have encountered have not been ready for anything and I end up hurt and a little more dis-illusioned than before. The womens ages range from 20-30 and have varied from students to city professionals.
I have to say that if this pattern continues into my 30's I can't see myself being too keen too commit.
Daniel Cohen, London, England
Dont give up Laura. When you say "In our early twenties (the age at which our parents tended to meet and marry), we, arguably the first generation of properly educated and professionally ambitious women, were not ready to settle down and start having babies", you have hit the nail on the head. And correspondingly, your male friends at that age, who were probably quite ready to get married, were the first generation of young men to arrive at adulthood and find out that the generation of women their age were "the first generation of properly educated....yadayada.... not ready to settle down and have babies". However these young men who might have married found out that the same girls who were busy 'having it all' were happy to have boyfriends - so your male contemporaries got used to no strings sex. A bit of a shame how it all went wrong.... blame feminism! But dont give up! (I'm a 39 year old ex man-boy, 18 months ago, I married someone 10 years younger)
James, Paris,
Perhaps all the comments here could be turned into some kind of advisory booklet for anyone contemplating marriage.
Geoffrey, Sydney,
when i met my wife she was a full time student. For 3 and a half years i supported her and her daughter. When she became employed it was, for the first 3 years, at very low wages as she established herself. Now her salary is more than mine and, surprise surprise, doesnt she make sure i know it. She demands that she makes all financial decisions, although we used to discuss these , and whenever we have a fall-out as all couples do from time to time she immediately threatens me with divorce, adding that I will have to leave her the home since our daughter is hers not mine, and then gloats that I would only be able to afford some 1-bed flat without her money.
If, or should that be when, this marriage ends there is no way I would ever again commit myself to a relationship, assuming anyone would want a man in my position.
Kevin Turner, Londom,
It's all about money, honey!
earlier it was
"For better or for worse"
now for the woman it's:
"For better or for PURSE"
Benjamiin Alvares, Mumbai, India
In places where 'no-strings-sex' is not so liberally distributed by young women, men still have to earn their right to sex by building a relationship with the woman first. This also entails exerting himself to prove he can afford to support her/ maintain her/ match her income ......ie is worthy of her.
Traditionally this is what has reined young males in , even in the UK up til quite recently.......I am actually quite liberal, but it baffles me that younger women think they can expect men to 'commit' when the men can so easily move on.
People seldom value what is free. People appreciate things they have worked hard to earn , and to hold on to. 'No-strings sex' spoils it for everyone.
Anna, Singapore,
I have 4 basic pieces of advice for women who want to find a male partner and have children.
1. Satisfy your mans sexual needs (and make sure he satisfies yours).
2. Learn to cook. You would not believe how many men appreciate good home food but c'ant be bothered to make it themselves.
3. Make a nest (men can't but like to live in one).
4. When you have children look after them well. In my opinion there is little that turns a man off more than seeing a women who cannot deal with her own offspring.
What qualifications do I have to offer this advice I hear you ask. None really, except that I'm 44, happily married and have 5 kids.
David, Kuwait City, Kuwait
In 1950's Britain the marriage contract read "I marry you until death us do part".
21st century Britain's marriage contract reads "As an empowered woman I hereby promise to remain married to you for only as long as it suits me, if I tire of you and find someone else then you will have any children taken from you and you will be financially ruined".
Any guesses as to why any young man might be reluctant to marry.
david webb, bournemouth, uk
We Americans have been struggling with the same demographic shift, though I was under the impression that we had it worse. When I observed European couples in and around NYC, it seemed they got hitched a decade younger than we did, while still in their twenties.
Today is my birthday, I am 45 years old. When I got married in June '98, I was already 35 and worrying about my fertility. But after 8 months of trying I became pregnant naturally and had a beautiful, remarkable boy. My husband is five weeks my senior and was already divorced, having married at 23. While he did suffer economic setbacks and had debts, he and the ex didn't have children and he was prepared to make a fresh start.
More than anything, marriage requires two willing people. The rope-a-dope strategy is not recommended. I'm reminded of the recent Italian movie "L'Ultimo Bacio" which looked at a group of young men about to turn 30, and where they each were in their lives.
I see marriage as a pact, a sacrament.
Carolyn Bongiorno, Glenham, NY U.S.A.
What goes up.... must come down.
What goes around comes around.
Nice phrases. But they are true.
It matters not what women say or think.
What matters is to get the most out of life. There are many ways to accomplish that: marriaga not being one of them.
Men's life expectancy is on the rise and rising faster than women's. We can postpone marriage and kids yet another twenty years or so.
I know men in their sixties who bacame fathers for the first time.
And they love it because they have plenty of time on their hands and they are no longer afraid of the corrupt justice system.
Men have now the upperhand in reproduction: nothing starts until we say O.K.
We now have the ultimate last word in reproduction because we can wait almost indefinitely. Let's use that power and have fun in the meantime.
up and down, upton , uk
Get yourself a Russian girl, fellas. They tend to have a far greater grasp of reality than ours do, and are mostly a lot better looking too. If you can hold down a reasonable job, look after them, aren't alcoholic and stay faithful to them, they are happy as Larry. No wonder all the expats over here get hitched!
Howard Gethin, Moscw, Russia
There are definitely desirable and commitment-friendly men out there - but the lady in question has to genuinely want to be in a serious relationship and be consistent herself in demonstrating "partner-worthy" qualities. The men I know are quite sensitive and can tell who is serious about a relationship and who isn't. Almost all of my good friends (I'm 33) are in seemingly very happy (not perfect, but good) marriages; I'm not married, but dating someone who challenges and intrigues me in good ways. Be open to others (even the ones who on the surface may not seem "perfect") and consistent in who you are - you'll find a match.
Lea, Houston, USA/TX
Why buy the cow when you can get all the milk you want for free?
David, Rowlett, TX
Maybe what we are now seeing within British society, are the effects from high divorce rates, single parenting, women behaving similar to men where sex is concerned, pressures of looking like a supermodel for the rest of ones life, and being successful. There is nothing wrong with most, but somewhere in between love and romance went out the window or perhaps people in general are afraid of commitment and run for the door at the first signs of difficulties. Love is about being there through the bad and hard times as well as the good. Appreciating what we do have is often overlooked, until it is too late and it is no more. We can not always plan our lives down to the finer details. As a grandfather of 2, at the age of 49, I am very happy with my life. It is great seeing my own children settled down and happy with their own families.
All the efforts made when I was younger are worth it and I would do it all again. Maybe looking in different social venues may be your answer!
Mark Harris, Outer Swansea area, Wales
I love men. Love 'em, love 'em, love 'em. Never had a problem with them. Had marriage proposals from all of them and eventually accepted one from the loveliest one. 17 years later and one child I am happy. Still love them men though.
Women should take a long hard look at themselves. They may well be not as nice as they think they are.
LindaC, Melbourne, Australia
Hi Laura
I have heard this complaint before and I understand your puzzlement. Clearly, you are looking for men in the wrong places. When you reject one, you seem to be returning to the same place, and unsuprisingly find the same type of man. You need to break the cycle.
Stop shopping at supermarkets. Move to a country with roaming wildlife. Learn to hunt with a bow and arrow. Wear a bronze bikini.
These simple steps should help break the cycle and encourage a source of appropriately manly men.
Days, Top End, Australia
Its the same here in Australia, women can have any man they want when they are in their 20s. They act like they can too which is a bit of a turnoff.
The girls are big into game playing in their 20s leading guys on with flirting just to get an ego boosting response, milking free drinks from guys etc.
The problem with girls in their 20s is that they think they are going to be this desirable for ages. But the 30s creep up sure enough and the blokes who they rejected at 22 are now enjoying dating women younger than them while they complain about men not wanting to commit.
Any guy is gonna want to go out with a fit woman in her twenties than a desperate woman in her thirties with too many miles on her clock.
Make hay while the sun shines girls - commit too. Cos no man wants to marry yesterdays model.
Jim, Adelaide, SA
Laura,whining is most unbecoming,as is casting blame and belittleing the very creatures you claim to be in want of.Men are much more than men/boys,but your hateful patterns of thought will not allow you to see that.The unfair divorce laws of today in western countries have certainly had an effect on men,but I think that even more damageing to women and their prospects of marriage is the fact that these laws have given women free reign to behave in such ugly ways,and men see women for what they are,and they are filled with dislike and revulsion.It causes them to WANT to treat women badly.Stop blaming men for your problems,you brought them on yourself.And do not think it is to late for you to have a rewarding life with a fine man,it is not.But you need to develope a friendly and decent outlook toward men,and I believe your life will change.An EDUCATED woman such as yourself may consider this silly,but "you can catch more flies with honey-----"
hugh, houston, texas
Some good stuff here especially from the men and from the mother.
We all know that women are better baby makers in their 20s than their 30s but he likes of Nolan chose not to do that. They spurned the nice guys who would have liked to settle down.
Those guys have learned about women's wiles and now Nolan is hoist with her own petard and her younger sisters have taken her place. As ye sow so shall ye reap.For the record, all my friends who married before 30 are still with their wives and enjoying their grown up children
Peter, Singapore today, Glasgow tomorrow
Im 28 and do not believe I shall ever marry. I once believed that i would like to in my early twenties but now am becoming convinced that it is just not worth the hassle.
Why would I want to marry a woman who would at some time in the future divorce me and take the house, kids and income. What would i have left? Nothing.
I use to hold marriage as something to aspire to. Now I see it as a contract which has a high probability of being broken and the man left to pick up the pieces. Why would I ever want to bring kids into the world when if the wife decides shes bored and takes them and the house and part of your income.
What scares me is having my kids seperated from me so I have decided not to marry or have kids.
I just cannot trust women to do the decent thing and stay married. Women can be quite eager to get divorced knowing they can take the house get child support and keep the kids. All they lose is the husband they don't want anymore.
Men lose too much in marriage
Jim, Adelaide, Australia / SA
The problem is women like you who have a gold digger attitude and expect men to be wealthy, have a job they can parade to their friends, have a 1 million house and money to take you out to fancy rip off restaurants. Maybe fall in love with a man regardless of his status,London sucks big time I know and British women living in London with a job that pays them more than £40.000 are materialistic and draining for a man to cope with
Rod , New York, USA
We men in the US get tired of being married a few years, and then she wants a divorce. She gets everything. We get the bills.
I'm 45 and almost ready to retire. Why would I want to get married and risk having some woman take all I have?
Warren Trout , Seattle, USA
If a male writer announced that modern women are defective because they aren't giving modern men what they want, the writer would be rightly denounced as sexist. Yet again and again I read articles by female writers declaring that modern men are defective because they aren't giving women what they want. Ladies, the life men want to lead is entirely up to them. They do not owe you marriage and children. If they do not want to settle down with you, that does not mean that they have failed. It means that the life they prefer is one without you. Men, just like women, have the right to choose the life that suits them best regardless of whether other people like it or not.
Greg Long, St. Louis,
You write "Marriage strikes me as hard enough work without saddling yourself with someone for whom you don’t quite feel all that’s necessary." Stop pretending this is some horrible sacrifice on your part!
True Love is not an emotion, it is an action. Marriage is not about the individual happiness of the two adult members but rather the stability of the family unit. Romantic love (i.e. Mr Right, Soulmate etc) is an illusion first crafted by medieval troubadors.
Authentic love involves accepting our husbands(or for men wives) as the imperfect creatures they are. Not nagging them when they don't live up to our childhood fantasies. Happily doing things that benefit the other, even if we don't want to , or find it tedious or demeaning to do so. Real marriage and real love are about survival of the species, creating a stable family unit. That is all. It 's not about having the butterfly feeling in your stomach, exciting nights out, fancy dinners, jewelery, roses etc.
Mandy, Lawrence, Kansas, US
There will never again be a golden time for men and women.
in the west.Women wanted it all,got it all and are now moaning because they find that life is not all it's cracked up to be.The worst thing of all is that the white race is dying out and
our fathers and mothers values and creativity are being lost.
Either women can accept that things have gone too far or
they just really don't care in which case why bother fighting
wars?
michael savell, eastbourne, uk
What a pathetic lot of people many of these male contributors are. Has it never occurred to them that the vast majority of the earliest feminists were men? Daniel Defoe, John Stuart Mill, the Marquis of Condorcet.....they all had the magnanimity to recognize that women were, and had been throughout history, subordinated and abused for a variety of different reasons. And has it not occurred to them that the anti-male divorce laws that they complain about so bitterly were drawn up, debated, and passed almost entirely by men? And why should that be? Why is it that when secretaries were men, the occupation was highly esteemed and well paid, but as soon as it became a job primarily done by women it acquired low social esteem and became associated with low intelligence? If women had anything like fairness and equality, there would be no need for such laws, designed to protect women, because they remain, as ever, weak, vulnerable, and undervalued. Clearly, some of these men are beyond hope.
Lesley Harper, London, UK
I have sworn to myself that I will never marry, and in my mid-twenties got sterilised for my own 'protection' (i.e. control of my own life).
I have been a serial monogamist for the last 10 years and really am not interested in any more than that.
It seems men aren't allowed to be men anymore; we are merely destined to become the providers (of status, wealth, support, children) for women. Quite a pattern emerging from all the male comments on this page who almost ALL agree that:
- marriage is no longer an attractive proposition for men
- divorce ruins a man's life but not a woman's
- women expect to have their own way ALL THE TIME
- that single life is actually fantastic for guys
- that women have lost a lot of their attractive traits, but have gained the worst traits of young men
- that British and American women are the most unattractive propositions of all, largely through access to glossy magazines and shows like Sex In the City
Alex McGregor, Plymouth, UK
laura, have you considered the possibility that if you and your middle-aged friends can't find a nice man, the problem is you? I guess so, if you've read these comments! perhaps you're just no fun. although maybe the problem is with marriage and the courts too.
it's not that men don't grow up, it's that they are having a good time and can afford to be choosy....like younger women - isn't this precisely what you've all been doing? and you haven't grown up, you just got old, which means the physical imperatives are casting a shadow.
the real difference between men and women is that women buy impractical shoes. and then they expect sympathy when they can't walk in them and their feet hurt. I think you know what I'm saying.
a few correspondents have noted 50% of marriages fail. it is silly to look at this stat. I don't feel my marriage has a 50% chance of failure. because I take it seriously and married the right person. bad marriages fail, not half of all marriages.
jem, london, uk
Laura, I haven't read all the other comments, but, please do yourself a favour and read Sam de Brito's response from the Sydney Morning Herald. He will give you the man's (or man-boy's) response to your point of view.
As a guy in my late 20s, with many single 30 something (male and female) friends, I do see women who have left it to the last minute to commit and now are trying to cram 10 years of finding mr right into 10 minutes (speed dating anyone?). I don't blame either of the sexes for this problem, but after these women have been enjoying themselves on a free and easy basis for the last 20 years, I have no wonder that their male contemporaries are used to this behaviour and need some time adapting to the change in their world. Unfortunately for some women, this adaptation may take longer than the body clock allows.
Dan, Doha, Qatar
Sam's article can be found here: http://blogs.theage.com.au/lifestyle/allmenareliars/archives/2008/02/a_reply_to_the.html
Dan, Doha, Qatar
Chloe of London.
If you are emotionally ready for sex then you are emotionally ready for marriage. What you are doing in taking boyfriends and then rejecting them because they are too serious is pure stupidity, and you are extremely likely to end up in your thirties rejected and with no-one.
At 20-odd you've got a strong hand. Wait until you can say "I want to be with this person for the rest of my life". It is possible to make marriage work. 50% don't get divorced.
Malcolm McLean, Bradford, UK
English women are the most unattractive women in the whole world, also they have a really annoying accent that makes them sound patronizing.
Tom, New York, USA
The Times, I am very disappointed.I am sick to death of man-bashing articles and women constantly claiming victim status, basically blaming men for their inadequacies and bad life decisions.you have the rights, now take responsibility.
Perhaps introspection and attitude change toward men might help Laura meet a partner who will be with her. Selfish Laura had it the way she wanted in her 20s, played the field, turned down multiple men who could have made her very happy, and with her attitude, very probably enjoyed the feeling of power she got from doing so.Painful now that the men,once willing to commit,have the chance to do this,isn't it?Also, love and respect does not flow from a man who is treated like a commodity or lifestyle accessory, or cash cow once divorced.
I'm 24 and seriously considering never marrying.With women like you,esp., it's a very bad option for men.This may well change,as I am now committed to a scandinavian woman who is prepared to give to a relationship.
Dan, London, UK
as ive read all this, ive got depressed. im in my early 20's, and yes i broke up with a guy because it got too serious and im young and want to enjoy my life. these comments and my own life experience have led me to conclude that...
SOME women screw over men because they want money and children and men are only the means to get it.
SOME men screw over women because they realise they can enjoy themselves more if they are single.
infact, it seems that theres a role reversal coming; men-boys as she puts it in the article are basically the women of their 20s. personally, this is partly what has left me in a paranoid state, i dont want to settle down, im scared of love, because i see that i will settle down and be happy then the guy will leave me at 30 cos he realises im saggin and boring and there are attractive younger girls out there that are more than willing to 'entertain him'. catch 22..?
Chloe, london,
Many men don't want to commit to a long term relationship or marriage now because they are more aware of the consequences of divorce, or breaking up. The woman moves in with you, perhaps leading to marriage, then there's a 50/50 chance of having a divorce, whereupon the woman asset-strips the man to the tune of half of his wealth, which is not fair. Many men thus avoid long term relationships or marriage to protect their own hard-earned life savings. If marriage was just about love, then more men would get married.
Ken Barker, Gloucester, UK
Men and women are only compatible in a pre-industrial age world. Marriage was a survival conract as much as anything. Love & happiness took a back seat. Now women get married for emotional gratification and men marry to get laid steady, at least young men and women. As a man, I can state that until I was 45 I was completely incapable of being responsible for a womans emotional gratification. I was however completely capable, from a young age, to be a provider in a pre-industrial world and my woman would have loved me for that back then. I would have loved my woman for her role in the family.
Today marriage doesn't work, it simply can't work. The proof is all around you. No gender is to blame. The good news is that as a man I do Single better than a woman who is always more comfortable in a relationship. Men generally want freedom. This shows in politics. A woman will trade her Liberty for security (from the state) in a heartbeat. A man craves liberty.
Gilly, Lawrenceville, ga
"British Women in their thirties can't find mates. They can't find any. Why?"
Errrr....is it maybe because they're not attractive?! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Andy, London,
Men don't commit because in their randy days, they weren't earning much and were pretty immature, hence the boozing, porn-obsession, etc. Not the type to get the girl.
Now they (we) are older and hopefully not as boozy/porn-mad and a bit more mature, we can give back what we get!
John, London,
I sympathize with the author. She is looking for, basically, a traditional man, one who puts family first, is willing to work hard and sacrifice and save and behave like not just like an adult but a faithful committed married man from the age of 21 or 22. As a single, never-married 40-YO man, I have seen the same problem; I have yet to meet a traditional women, one who wants marriage and kids at 21 or 22, and is ready to sacrifice and skimp and save and remain faithful and committed and live a traditional lifestyle of taking care of children and home and be modest and easy to live with and....
You get the idea.
The author seems to be seeing only what she wants. It takes two to tango. If the average woman were a traditional kind of woman, the average man would be a traditional kind of man. But such is not the case. You can't get toothpaste back in a tube; my advice to her is learn to love being single. God knows I have!
Matt, Rochester, NY USA
Simple test - would you sleep with this person without using contraception ? If the answer's no, then why sleep with him/her ? You know they're not that keen, reliable, responsible etc to parent a child and/or you're not that into him/her either so move on and fast because biologically both sexes need to be having children in their 20s NOT 30s (it's not easy for men either !). Simple priority for young adults - get yourself into a situation (social, financial, emotional) so you're able to have children as and when it happens (it really isn't the big deal it's made out to be and what kind of crazy society are we living in when the most basic biological act is seen as a disaster !?) . Be creative and imaginative about this and be creative about the nature or your relationship with the other parent - you don't even have to live together, all you have to do is co-parent. If it goes wrong NEVER get nasty about the other, maybe even get back together again but in separate houses - why not ?
Lisa , Paris, France
Yes, "rationalist, london", every man who isn't interested in dating vapid, self-absorbed modern women is clearly afraid of women who are independant.
I'm sure it helps you sleep at night.
Jim, Ayrshire,
"Most twentysomething women want little to do with twentysomething men, preferring thirtysomething men"
Not me! When I was 22, I wanted to go out with other 22 year olds; likewise when I was 24, 25, and 28. They were my peers and my friends; I had things in common with them, so that was who I enjoyed dating, even if I didn't meet the right person for the long term.
Now that I'm 30, I want to go out with with thirtysomething men. I've met plenty, both online and in three dimensions, who are great guys. By "great guys" I don't mean Bratt Pitt with a PhD and a trust fund, but nice and normal men. They want the same things we want: to meet someone they can love, regardless of age. And even if we don't find it in each other (I haven't yet) we can have fun looking. Laura, it might sound like Charlotte from SATC, but I swear, they are out there, and they're looking for us too - let's just give them a chance!
Nicola, London (via Dublin),
I find it a hilarious logical absurdity that women who are frustrated with relationships think that putting down men and belittling them, and treating them like children will get them to change their minds. First off, we are not "man-boys", we are realists. We don't want to marry because we've heard of the countless plethora of no-fault divorces and false abuse claims that rob a man of his entire livelihood. If you saw a puddle of quicksand, would you walk into it? A lot of us don't think it's worth takin